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A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774-1875
Saturday November 18th. 1780. Present Mr. McKean, Mr. Bee, Mr. Ward, Mr. Sharpe, & Mr Matlack. Also Mr Gibson, Mr Forman, Mr Geddis, And Mr Nicholson. (1)
Mr Huston (2) introduced and desired to give evidence on the charges exhibitted by the Com. of Treas. Agt. the Chambers of Accots. and the sd. charges were read whereupon Mr. Huston was requested to proceed.
Mr. Gibson rose and having made some observations on the propriety of having heard Mr Hustons evidence first in order-desired that the question then in his hand on paper might be proposed.
Mr Gibson was informed-That the Committee adhered to the mode of hearing the evidence first-and that afterwards he would be at liberty to ask any questions he pleased.(3)
Mr. Huston asked to what points he was to answer. It was replied-the charges of indolence &c as stated.(4)
While I attended the Treasury 10 Novr. 1779-for six months- The Board met at 9 in the Morning-the Members of Congress at
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9-himself frequently 8. His only mode of judging was from the time of attending of the Com. of Accots. Thus he sometimes did not find them all there at 9 oclock sometimes not at 10. That he attended also sometimes in the afternoon-at five oclock-that he did not make observations or remark any particular negligence-nor did he find them all there-but those who were there were generally employed and he allways found he could have the business he came about readily done.
I observed that except at those hours I cannot answer, being in Congress. I had no other opportunity of judging of the Case but from the reports made by the Chambers. Those that were made I did not pay particular attention to them with this board. Sometimes the Vouchers were few-sometimes many. Perhaps when the reports were few there might have been particular difficulties-the reports themselves may perhaps best show.
Mr. Huston continued.
As to incapacity.
So far as I can judge the accounts were properly stated. I was not altogether a competent judge of their abilities; but so far as I could judge their did not appear anything to prove but that they were capable. I suppose the question points to their abilities as accomptants. I have had no occasion to look into the business in any other view.
Partiality.
Do you know of any instances of it? (And the words of the charge was read).
An. I do not know any instance of that kind.
Mr Hopkinsons, Mr Gibsons & Mr Trickets accots. were mentioned.
Mr Huston. There were a variety of appeals upon reports; but it did not strike me that there appeared to be any instance of partiality in the Chambers of accounts.
Mr. Bickings accott. mentioned,(5) and the charge read. I recollect something about a hesitation in the board to allow Bickings accott. On an opinion, that the public was creditted too low for the Canvass- And I thus thought it ought to have been raised in proportion to the price of paper; but how the matter issued I cannot tell, perhaps the letters on that occasion may show.
Qu. Did you apprehend, that there was any partiality in the Chambers of Acts. in this instance?
An. I did not.
Maligning the Board of Treasury-(the charge read).
Observation by Mr Gibson. This was after Mr. Huston left the board.
Mr Huston. I dont know how I should know of that as a public charge. I have heard the Chambers of accotts. when my business
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lead me to the Chambers of accotts. which was often, speak freely of the abilities of the Commisrs. of the Treasury, from which I supposed they did not think very highly of them.
Qu. Did you ever hear them say any thing injurious to the integrity and attention to business?
An. No.
Qu. Was what you have heard the Com. of Chambers say of the Com. of Trea. in public?
An. What I have heard them say has been in the Chambers, when there might have been the Com. of Chambers and perhaps the Assistant Auditor Genl.
Qu. Do you recollect any particular words expressed by them respecting the Com. Treas.?
An. I cannot recollect any particular expressions; but I have heard them express a sentinent That the Com. of Tr. were not in all respects the best qualified for the discharge of the trust committed to them- and perhaps so far as to intimate their temper or disposition as being not the most favourable for that station.
Questions by Mr. Gibson
To No. 1.
An. To the best of my recollection they did.
The several questions proposed by Mr. Gibson being read altogether,(6) it was moved, That the said questions should be delivered to Mr Huston to be answered by him in writing; but several questions not relating to the charges against the Chambers of accotts, being objected to-the committee agreed to hear and propose any questions offered by the Com. of Trea. which in any way tended to elucidate the charges against the Cham. of Accotts.(7)
Q. No. 2. Do you know that the intention of the board of treasury, of fixing hours of office for the Chambers of accounts, was communicated to them or any of them?
A. I do not know that it was communicated officially-I believe it was not, that no copy of such was sent down to the chambers.
Q. Did not the board postpone their intention of fixing hours of office for the chambers on hearing from Mr. Troop that he had conversed with them about it?
A. The Account given by Colo. Troop had some influence with the board, I believe, to postpone it; I know it had with me, but I will not say this was the only reason.
Q. Was the matter of fixing hours of office for the Chambers renewed when you sat at the Board?
A. I dont recollect, whether or not.
Q. No. 6. of Mr Gibson's Questions in writing.(8)
A. I believe, it was one of the reasons; and that the fixing hours of business was necessary in all the offices.
Q. 7th. Asked.(9)
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A. It appeared well enough, large & with light sufficient; it might be not so convenient on account of the heat, but I could have done business in it.
Q. Did I not prior to the 6th. of March 1780, when I let the house for 6 months for the treasury's use, reserve the chamber on the second floor, and part of the cellars?
A. I dont recollect, but I suppose the agreement was reduced to writing; I think it was in writing, and to that I refer.
N.B. Mr. Foreman then produced a writing to that effect, dated 27th Apl. which was after the report, of the Commissioners of the chambers on Gibson's Account for rent, was made.
No. 9Q. (10)
Ans. I remember there was such a proposal, but I do not recollect that we did any thing, but to advise the rent being settled on just and equitable principles-the general conversation I remember, but not particulars.
Mr. Hustons exam contd.
Qu. By Mr Mercier. Was there any official intelligence communicated to the Chambers of Accotts. of that conversation?
An. I believe there could not have been any official information upon it; but that may perhaps best appear from the minutes.
Qu. Who were those persons who were most frequently absent from the Chambers of accotts.?
An. I answered before, that I could not recollect any particular person.
Observation by Mr Mercier-That Mr Geddis & Mr. McComb were considerable time in the winter to the head of Elk on the settlement of Mr Hollingsworths Accotts, by order of the board of Treasury.
Ques. by Mr Geddis. Do you apprehend (from the knowledge you have of the ordnance that the Board of Treasury can be proper Judges of the business generally done in the Chambers; Or can it be possible that they can know the vouchers they go through unless an appeal is demanded?
An. They cannot judge of the difficulty of the Voucher; but they may know the number of Vouchers. Ten Vouchers may take up in one case, as much time as an hundred in another case.
Qu. From the business you have seen done by Mr Geddis, do you think he is an accomptant?
An. From what I know of Mr. Geddis, I had allways a good opinion of him.
Qu. (By Mr. Gibson to Mr. Govett). Did not I inform you, that the mode of stating his account of house rent was done by the opinion of the Board of Treasury?
Answr. Mr. Gibson did mention this to me.
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Qu. By Mr. Govett to Mr. Nicholson. At what time did I usually attend at the Chambers in the morning & afternoon?
An. You were generally first there.
Qu. Was I ever absent two, three, or four days at a time, except when I was confined by sickness, or detained in consequence, of the death of my child?
An. [Approximately one-quarter page left blank. ]
Mr Duane (11) produced on the part of Mr Gibson.
Qu. Do you recollect whether Mr Gibson reserved the chamber on the second floor for his own use, at the time he let the house to the Treasury?(12)
An. He does not remember particulars but it is impressed on his mind and have no doubt that the sd. room was reserved to Mr. Gibson-who lodged in the house and the papers were considered as being secured by his residence there which was a public benefit. (13)
MS (DNA: PCC, item 62). In the hand of Timothy Matlack and Thomas McKean. A continuation of the committee minutes of November 17, 1780.
(1) John Nicholson, a clerk in the chamber of accounts, whom the commissioners had attempted to have removed in July for "leaking" their correspondence and writing a "Burlesque Parody" of their conduct. See PCC, item 62, fols. 381-88, 397-400, 452-55.
(2) New Jersey delegate William Churchill Houston, a member of the Board of Treasury from November 9, 1779, to May 9, 1780. JCC, 15:1447, 18:1230.
(3) The following detached note located among the committee's papers, in the hand of Timothy Matlack, may have been written in connection with this episode. It bears upon both the repeated efforts of Gibson and Forman to dictate the committee's procedures and their complaint that Matlack's hostility jeopardized their right to an impartial hearing.
"Note. That Mr. Gibson demanded then to be heard on the charge against the Com[missioner]s of Treasury.
"The charges exhibitted against the Chamber of accots. is in writing. And the Testimony on which these charges are founded is mentioned to be such as are there mentioned-among the evidences Mr. Huston was not mentioned.
"The charges against the Com. Treas. was the original and distinct thing. The charges of the Com. of Treasury against the Chamber of Accots. was instituted afterwards by the Com. of Treasury and it was evidently the design of the Com. of Tr[easury] to involve them together. This I objected to." PCC, item 62, fol. 393.
(4) That is, the second of Forman's and Gibson's charges. See the committee minutes of November 17, note 4.
(5) See the committee minutes of October 26, note 15.
(6) These "interrogatories to be proposed to Mr Houston," which are in the hand of John Gibson, are incorrectly filed in the middle of the committee minutes for this date written by Matlack and McKean. They read as follows:
"Interrogatories to be proposed to Mr Huston.
"Qn. 1. As you sat Six Months at the Board of Treasury, from the Commencement of the present Establishment, we wish to know your sense of the Conduct of Ezekiel Forman and John Gibson during that Time, with Respect to Insolence and undue Pride of Office, and what is your opinion of the Expediency, of fixing Rules and Regulations, for the Government of the Treasury, & of executing the Business thereof.
"Qn. 2. While Col. Troop acted as Secretary to the Board; & Prior to Mr
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Gibsons presentation of his account of office Rent to the Auditor General (which was on the 6t. of March 1780) did not the Board propose to set Hours of Office, for the several Offices of the Treasury?
"Qn. 3. Did not Col. Troop very shortly after inform the Board that he had communciated the Intention of the Board of fixing Hours of Office, to some of the Commissioners of the Chambers?
"Qn. 4. What was the Conversation which passed between him and the Commissioners on that Subject, as mentioned by the said Col Troop? and who did he say were the Commissioners with whom he had that Conversation?
"Qn. 5. Did he not tell you that one of them charged John Gibson as the Author of these Measures, and threaten him with the Loss of his Seat if he persisted, by means of his Influence, or Interest with Members of Congress?
"Qn. 6. Was it not frequently taken Notice of by the Board of Treasury, that the Chambers of Accounts did little Business; and was it not from this Consideration That the Board in the beginning of May, determined to pursue Measures to oblige the Chambers, to a more close Attention to their Duty, which was begun by an Order of the Board of the fourth of May in these Words 'Ordered that the auditor General lay before the Board tomorrow morning, a State of Hours of Office, observed in his Office and in the Offices in the Chambers of Accounts. ' (The members then present were Mr Houston, Mr Burke and Mr Gibson).
"[Qn.] 7th. Is not the Room over that occupied by the Board of Treasury, to which one of the Chambers of Accounts was ordered to do Business, large, commodious, and decent.
"Qn. 8. Have you not frequently while you was a Member of the Board of Treasury and since, been at the Chamber of Accounts between the Hours of nine and twelve in the fornoon, and three & five in the afternoon, and found none or a small Part of the Commissioners in the Room.
"No. 9.-Q. by Mr. Gibson. Did not Mr Gibson consult the Board of Treasury previous to his exhibiting his Account for House Rent for the Offices of the Treasury, whether he should charge the Rent from the Time he was paid up to at £80 per annum, or only the Time the House was actually employed by the Board of Treasury, and did not the Board advise him to charge the Time it was actually employed raising the Rent in proportion to the Time it was not occupied by the Board. "
(7) The testimony on the following seven questions is recorded in the hand of Thomas McKean.
(8) That is, question no. 6 quoted in note 6 above.
(9) That is, question no. 7 quoted in note 6.
(10) Question no. 9 in note 6.
(11) New York delegateJames Duane, who had originally been elected to the Board of Treasury in 1776 and was reelected in May 1780 in the place of Houston. JCC, 6:1068, 18:1230.
(12) For the context of this question, see the March 9, 1780, report of the commissioners of accounts on John Gibson's "charges for the Rent of the House in which the Treasury Office, Auditor Generals Office, and the Office of the Chamber of Accounts are kept," in PCC, item 62, fols. 413-16.
(13) For the continuation of these proceedings, see the committee's minutes, November 20, 1780.
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