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A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774-1875
Journals of the Continental Congress --1THURSDAY, AUGUST 3, 1786.
[Note 1: 1 Charles Thomson here resumes the entries.]
Congress assembled. Present, as before.
On a report of the Secretary at War, on the expediency of retaining West Point as a military post,
Resolved, That the board of treasury endeavour to negotiate with the legal proprietor of West Point, on Hudson's river, the purchase of the same for the United States, on an equitable appraisement, together with so much land contiguous thereto, as shall be deemed by the Secretary at War necessary to be included within the limits of the garrison; and that the board agree for the terms of payment in the manner most consistent with the state of the finances of the United States.
Aug. 3, 1786.
According to Order the Secretary for foreign Affairs attended; and being called upon to state the difficulties mentioned in his letter of the 29, and explain himself on the subject of that letter.
The Secretary for foreign Affairs informed Congress that he had some time since received from Mr. Gardoqui an unofficial and unsigned paper:
Spain being by far the greatest Consumer of all the European Kingdoms, and having besides extensive territories of Consume in her West Indies, it is of course of the greatest importance to any foreign nation in all Commercial interests.
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England is very conscious of the advantages that may be gott by a friendly Commercial treaty, and leaves no pains to bring it to a happy conclusion as soon as possible. She well knows that Spain's annual consume of Cod-fish, brings her in from 4 to 5 Millions of dollars, by which she employs between 5 or 6000 Seamen.
That great quantities of pickled Salmon and Train Oil are besides pouring annually into the Spanish Markets from her ports.
To this must be added, her great woolen Manufactures, but as Spain is advancing fast in the latter, and will probably stop the importation of them, England wants to secure the fisheries which sees no prospect of Spain's having any at all.
Under the above principles, England exerts to the utmost to prevent that American States should come to a friendly good understanding with Spain, fully assur'd that no other Nation can outrival them in the valuable branches of fisheries.
She well knows that the local situation of the United States and other advantages render a much better fish than that of Newfoundland, and that the Spanish Markets afford 1 to 1½ dollars pr. quintal more to the former. She is besides fully persuaded that the trade of the States with Spain must rise them amazingly, as their Flour, grain, rice, Tobacco and several other smaller articles, such as Lumber, Masts, Yards, Beeswax &c: are valuable. If it be added to this, the consideration that Spain and the States, are the almost only Masters of this vast Continent, who if well join'd may defy the other powers or at least keep them in
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eternal peace, there can be no doubt of its being a mutual interest.1
[Note 1: 1 This document is in the writing of Benjamin Bankson in Secret Journal, Foreign, No. 5; the original, written in English by Gardoqui, is in No. 97, folio 170.]
and afterwards a letter, dated 25 May, 1786, which he laid before Congress:
New York, 25th. May, 1786.
Sir: The period is arrived that we have wished for many months when there would be a full meeting of Congress, that you might refer to them the difficulty which you have manifested to me respecting the claim to navigate the river Mississippi, which is ill founded. I request the favour of you to do it as soon as possible, and that you will be pursuaded of what I have always assured you, that the King will not permit any Nation to navigate between the two banks belonging to his Majesty from the extent of his conquests made by his royal arms over the English in East and West Florida, according to the dominion formerly held by the English, and the jurisdiction exercised by the Commandant of Pensacola on which it depended, as well as the Countries to the East of the Mississippi of which formal possession was taken by Captain Don Baltazar de Villers, Commandant of the post of Arkanzar, for his Majesty on the 22d. November, 1780.
His Majesty does not consider the regulation made between the United States and Great Britain respecting the territories conquered by his arms but as a conditional agreement in which they tacitly leave safe the territorial rights which he possessed in those parts.
Those territories were in that same state of conquest and in the possession neither of England nor the United States, when they disposed of them. There can be no doubt, but that Treaty of 30th. November, 1782, when the
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War between Spain and England continued, could not fix the limits of Countries which were not in possession.
His Majesty therefore understands those stipulations as conditional, and dependent on the situation in which things might be left by a general peace.
The Honorable Congress cannot be ignorant of the good and generous disposition of his Majesty towards the United States, and the importance of his powerful friendship, his Majesty having been pleased to give so many strong proofs of favour to the Americans Captive in Barbary, and those he afterwards afforded for aiding their Commissioners for negociating and obtaining peace with those powers.
They should also be persuaded that the King enjoys so great consideration with those powers, that as being a Nation which possesses the friendship of his Majesty, they may be sure of that of the Emperor of Morocco and in a great degree of that contracted with the Regency of Algiers. America has reason to fear the evil consequences which all their Commerce would experience if his royal Mediation should be withdrawn, for she would not only be deprived of that in the Mediterranean, but would also be much interrupted in that which she carries on through the Western Islands and Canaries, and even on their own Coasts.
It appears to me equally just to remind the Honorable Congress of the generosity with which his Majesty has delayed requesting 'till now the payment of the principal of the debts contracted by the United States both in Spain and America, being so delicate as not to apply even for the interest due thereon notwithstanding the difficulties with which he provides for his Treasury.
These facts appear sufficient to remove the difficulties you have manifested to me respecting limits and the navigation of the said River, but I contemplate in its
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greatest latitude the risk which the United States would run, by not yielding without delay to the just rights of the King of losing the only trade, whose balance is in their favour, exposing themselves to the danger of enjoying it but illy, and of frustrating other Compacts, reciprocally useful, which time and experience may bring about.
The importance of this object is evident in all the States, for it is well known that all their productions meet with a ready sale in the Markets of Spain, where they are paid for in Gold and Silver, whereas all other Nations pay with Manufactures (in great part Articles of luxury) with which they impoverish this Country.
Spain in its present state is a Consumer both in Europe and America. There is not a Nation but what earnestly desires the friendship and favour of the King, and as he has no occasion for the Cod-fish, Oil, Salmon, Grain, Flour, Rice, nor other productions, he may, considering the right which obliges his Subjects to provide themselves by their own industry or other useful and important means, find it convenient to prohibit them, to remind this Nation at present, as a friend, that they have no Treaty. Whereas, in case they generously comply, the King will consider them, in Commerce, as being the most favored Nation, making reciprocal regulations, so that whenever one is made here favourable to Spain in regard to imports and exports, another equivalent to that of the United States shall there be made.
No one is ignorant of the great advantages which the United States derive from their trade with Spain, from whence they yearly extract Millions, as well by their productions as by their Navigation which so much promotes the growth and Maintenance of their Marine.
Spain has no occasion for foreign commodities to become very brilliant in its proper dominions, and to find
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an advantageous Consumption for its products and manufactures; so that the generosity and friendship which she manifests, proceed solely from the benevolent attentions which with a liberal hand the King wishes to distinguish the United States.
In consideration that nothing be said of such difficulties, I believe that his Majesty will consent to guarranty to the United States their rights and dominions, as they shall be left by our Treaty.
I will do my best endeavours on this and other points, and will interpose my prayers that his Majesty will adopt the most favourable measures in order that the satisfaction of the debts due from the United States, to Spain may be made with such relaxations as may be convenient to them.
The Honorable Congress will well perceive the importance of the Guarantee and friendship of one of the first Sovereigns in Europe, which will give consistency to their Confederacy, and whose Magnanimity desires only to proceed by equity, justice, and sincere desires of a constant friendship, and good neighbourhood.
I ought not, therefore, to doubt but that such an illustrious Confederacy will entertain correspondent dispositions, and I hope that you will not delay to promote it, and to advise me as soon as possible, that so salutary a work may not be deferred, to which for my part, I shall contribute with the greatest good will for the benefit of both Nations.
I have the Honor to be, &c:
Diego de Gardoqui.1
Senr Dr John Jay,
Minister for the foreign affairs of the United States.
[Note 1: 1 This is entered by Benjamin Bankson in Secret Journal, Foreign, No. 5. Copies are in No. 80, II, folio 189, and 97, folio 166.]
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And the same being read, he1 then delivered himself as follows:
[Note 1: 1 Secretary Jay.]
2Sir: Every person to whom is committed the management of a negotiation, from which many good or ill consequences will probably result, must find himself placed in a very delicate and responsible Situation. In that point of light I consider our present Negotiations with Spain, and that my sentiments on the subject may be conveyed to Congress with precision, and authentick evidence of them preserved, I have reduced them to writing as concisely and accurately as I could find leisure to do since I received notice to attend this day.
[Note 2: 2 At this point Benjamin Bankson begins the entry in the Journal.]
It appears to me, that a proper Commercial treaty with Spain would be of more importance to the United States than any they have formed, or can form, with any other Nation. I am led to entertain this opinion from the influence which Spain may and will have both on our politicks and Commerce.
France, whom we consider as our Ally, and to whom we shall naturally turn our eyes for aid in case of war, &c. is strongly bound to Spain by the family compact; and the advantages she derives from it are so various and so great, that it is questionable whether she could ever remain neutre in case of a rupture between us and his Catholic Majesty. Besides, we are well apprized of the sentiments of France relative to our Western Claims; in which I include that of freely navigating the river Mississippi. I take it for granted that, while the compact in question exists, France will invariably think it her interest to prefer the good will of Spain to the good will of America; and altho' she would very reluctantly give umbrage to either, yet, ff driven to take part with one
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or the other, I think it would not be in our favour. Unless we are friends with Spain, her influence, whether more or less, on the Counsels of Versailles, will always be against us.
The intermarriages between Spain and Portugal, which have taken place in this and the late Reigns, have given the former a degree of influence at the Court of the latter which she never before possessed; and leading men in both those Kingdoms seem disposed to bury former jealousies and apprehensions in mutual confidence and good offices. How far this system may be perfected, or how long continue, is uncertain; while it lasts, we must expect good or evil from it, according as we stand well or ill with Spain.
Britain would be rejoiced to find us at variance with Spain on any points. She remembers that we were once her Subjects, and loves us not. She perceives that we are her most important rivals in the SpaniSh trade, and that her nursery of Seamen on the banks of Newfoundland will prosper or otherwise, as ours of the like kind shall encrease or diminish; and it will encrease or diminish in proportion as we may or may not undersell them at foreign Markets, among which that of Spain is the most advantageous.
If Spain should be disposed to sink that scale in favour of Britain, there is little reason to doubt but that the latter will offer her powerful inducements to grant and perpetuate valuable preferences to her.
It is hard to say how far these inducements may extend, or how far they might both think it their interest to join in every measure tending to impair our strength, and thereby quiet those fears, with which uneasy Borderers and discontented neighbours usually inspire each other.
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Recent transactions tell us that the influence of Spain in Barbary is not contemptible. When time shall have cast a thicker veil over the memory of past and long continued hostilities; when the convenience of Spanish money and Spanish favors shall become better known, and more felt at Fez, Algiers, &c. it is more than probable that those powers will be little inclined to disoblige a nation, whose arms have given them much trouble, and from whose gratuities they derive more wealth and advantages than they have ever been able to reap from depredations and from plunder often hardly gained.
The influence which the Catholic King will and must have, in greater or lesser degrees in Italy, with several of whose Sovereigns he is allied by blood, as well as by treaties, merits some consideration. The trade of the Mediterranean deserves our notice; and Spain has convenient ports in that Sea.
In various ways, therefore, may Spain promote or oppose our political interests with several other Countries; and we shall, I think, either find her in America a very convenient Neighbour, or a very troublesome one.
They who are acquainted with the Commerce of that Country, can be at no loss in perceiving or estimating its value.
It is well known that they consume more than they export, and consequently that the balance of trade is and must be against them. Hence it is that the Millions they yearly bring from the Mines of America, so soon disappear, flying out of Spain by every road and port in it.
Details would be tedious, and considering where I am, unnecessary. It is sufficient to observe, that there is scarcely a single production of this Country but what may be advantageously exchanged in the Spanish European
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ports for Gold and Silver. These advantages, however, must depend on a Treaty; for Spain, like other Nations, may admit Foreigners to trade with her or not, and on such terms only as she may think proper.
The conclusion I draw from what has been said is, that on general principles of policy and Commerce, it is the interest of the United States to be on the best terms with Spain. This conclusion would be greatly strengthened by a review of our present local and other circumstances; but they are well known, and their language is strong and intelligible.
Sir, I do really believe that Spain is at present sincerely disposed to make friends of us. I believe this not because they have repeatedly told us so; for in my opinion little reliance is to be made on the professions of Courts or Courtiers; they will say what they may think convenient, but they will act according to what they may think their interest.
It appears to me that the Independence, situation, temper, resources and other circumstances of the United States, lead the Court of Spain to regard them with much attention, and I may add with jealousy and apprehension.
Their conduct induces me to think that their present policy and design is, to cultivate our friendship, and ensure the continuance of it, by such advantages in a treaty as may prevent its becoming our interest to break with them.
To this cause I ascribe the Civilities shown to the United States, by the release of their Citizens at the Havanna, and by the interposition of his Catholic Majesty in their favour at Morocco, &c.
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To the same cause I ascribe the very liberal and beneficial Articles which their plenipotentiary here is willing to have inserted in the treaty I am now negotiating with him, and which are specified in the following notes of them, viz.
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party, shall be ascertained and regulated on principles of exact reciprocity, by a tariff to be formed by a Convention for that purpose, to be negotiated and made within one year after the exchange of the ratification of this treaty; and in the mean time, that no other duties or imposts shall be exacted from each others Merchants and Ships than such as may be payable by Natives in like cases.
These articles need no comment. It is easy to perceive that by them we gain much, and sacrifice or give up nothing. They will not indeed permit our Tobacco to be vended in their Country; but that prohibition now exists, and will probably continue, whether we do or do not make a Treaty with Spain.
It is also certain that by means of the Canaries, our Flour and other Commodities will find the way to Spanish America; and the supply of that Market, even by a circuitous route, cannot fail of affording a very lucrative vent for those Articles.
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Mr. Gardoqui is not personally averse to our visiting the Philippines, but his instructions do not reach that point. I have hopes that this may be carried; and in that case it is obvious we shall be the better for the Acapulco trade.
I forbear to dwell minutely on these commercial subjects, because nothing I could say respecting them would be new.
My attention is chiefly fixed on two obstacles, which at present divide us, viz. the Navigation of the Mississippi, and the territorial limits between them and us.
My Letters written from Spain, when our affairs were the least promising, evince my opinion respecting the Mississippi, and oppose every idea of our relinquishing our right to navigate it. I entertain the same sentiments of that right, and of the importance of retaining it, which I then did.
Mr. Gardoqui strongly insists on our relinquishing it. We have had many Conferences and much reasoning on the subject, not necessary now to detail. His concluding answer to all my Arguments has steadily been, that the King will never yield that point, nor consent to any compromise about it; for that it always has been, and continues to be, one of their Maxims of policy, to exclude all Mankind from their American shores.
I have often reminded him that the adjacent Country was filling fast with people; and that the time must and would come, when they would not submit to seeing a fine river flow before their doors without using it as a high way to the sea for the transportation of their productions; that it would therefore be wise to look forward to that event, and take care not to sow in the treaty any seeds of future discord. He said that the
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time alluded to was far distant; and that treaties were not to provide for contingencies so remote and future. For his part he considered the rapid settlement of that Country as injurious to the States, and that they would find it necessary to check it. Many fruitless Arguments passed between us; and tho' he would admit that the only way to make treaties and friendship permanent, was for neither party to leave the other any thing to complain of; yet he would still insist, that the Mississippi must be shut against us. The truth is, that Courts never admit the force of any reasoning or Arguments but such as apply in their favor; and it is equally true, that even if our right to that Navigation, or to any thing else, was expressly declared in Holy Writ, we should be able to provide for the enjoyment of it no otherwise than by being in capacity to repel force by force.
Circumstanced as we are, I think it would be expedient to agree that the treaty should be limited to twenty five or thirty years, and that one of the Articles should stipulate that the United States would forbear to use the Navigation of that River below their territories to the Ocean. Thus the duration of the treaty and of the forbearance in question would be limited to the same period.
Whether Mr. Gardoqui would be content with such an Article, I cannot determine, my instructions restraining me from even sounding him respecting it. I nevertheless think the experiment worth trying for several reasons:
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It is possible that such an Article, if agreed to, might lessen one of the arguments urged to enhance the value of Western lands; but would not the Spaniards continuing by force to exclude us from the navigation soon have the same effect? In either case that Argument must lose some of its force; but in the one case America would also lose some of its dignity. It can be no question therefore which of the two cases would be least desirable.
If such a compromise should be attempted, and not succeed, we shall lose nothing by it; for they who take a lease admit the right of the Lessor.
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I have some hope that it would succeed, for I suspect Spain would agree, that as we are tempted to this forbearance now by other Articles in the Treaty, the like temptations will again induce us to prolong it; besides, I much doubt whether the Minister extends his views far beyond the limits of his own life or Administration; if he can render that easy and satisfactory, he may perhaps, without much reluctance, leave future disputes to be settled by future Ministers. It is hard to say whether this will or will not be the case. I am for trying the experiment, because it can, in my opinion, do us no injury, and may produce much good.
With respect to territorial limits, it is clear to me that Spain can justly claim nothing East of the Mississippi but what may be comprehended within the bounds of the Floridas. How far those bounds extend, or ought to extend, may prove a question of more difficulty to negotiate than to decide. Pains I think should be taken to conciliate and settle all such matters amicably; and it would be better even to yield a few Acres, than to part in ill humour.
If their demands, when ascertained, should prove too extravagant, and too pertinaciously adhered to, one mode of avoiding a rupture will still be left, viz. referring that dispute to impartial Commissioners. I do not mean by this, that any third sovereign should be called in to mediate or arbitrate about the matter. They make troublesome Arbitrators, and not always the most impartial. I mean private men for Commissioners; and to me there appears little difficulty in finding proper ones; for not being prepared for War, I think it much our interest to avoid placing ourselves in such a situation, as that our forbearing hostilities may expose us to indignities.
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It is much to be wished that all these matters had lain dormant for years yet to come; but such wishes are vain; these disputes are agitating; they press themselves upon us, and must terminate in accommodation, or War, or disgrace. The last is the worst that can happen; the second we are unprepared for; and therefore our attention and endeavours should be bent to the first.
Permit me, sir, to make one or two observations more. If the system of Spain respecting us really is what I suppose it to be, then it follows that this is the best season for making a treaty with her that can be expected.
The late War has left her new commercial engagements to make, particularly with Britain, whose attention to Commerce leaves us no room to suppose her indifferent to that with Spain. She is now able and willing to grant us favors; other treaties and other dispositions and views may render her in future both unable and unwilling to do the like.
At a time when other Nations are shewing us no extraordinary marks of respect, the Court of Spain is even coming our friendship by strong marks not merely of polite and friendly attention, but by offering us favors not common for her to hold out or bestow; for I consider the terms she proposes as far more advantageous than any to be found in her Commercial treaties with other Nations.
If after all her endeavours to take us by the hand, we should hold it back, every disposition and passion opposite to kind and friendly ones will undoubtedly influence her future conduct. Disappointed in her views, and mortified by repulse, and that in the sight of Europe, we may easily judge what her feelings would be; nor is it difficult to forsee that those feelings stimulated by the jealousies and apprehensions beforementioned, will naturally
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precipitate and keep her in a system of politicks, from which the United States cannot expect to derive advantage.
The Mississippi would continue shut; France would tell us our claim to it was ill founded; the Spanish posts on its banks, and even those out of Florida in our Country would be strengthened, and that Nation would there bid us defiance, with impunity, at least until the American Nation shall become more really and truly a Nation than it at present is. For, unblessed with an efficient government, destitute of funds, and without public Credit, either at home or abroad, we should be obliged to wait in patience for better days, or plunge into an unpopular and dangerous War with very little prospect of terminating it by a peace, either advantageous or glorious.
Supposing the Spanish business out of question, yet the situation of the United States appears to me to be seriously delicate, and to call for great circumspection both at home and abroad; nor, in my opinion, will this cease to be the case, until a vigorous National government be formed, and public Credit and confidence established.
These, Sir, are my sentiments on these important subjects; and whether they accord with, or vary from, those which may here prevail, yet I shall always remember that I am to be governed by the instructions, and that it is my duty faithfully to execute the orders of Congress.1
[Note 1: 1 The above proceedings are entered only in Secret Journal, Foreign, No. 5, by Benjamin Bankson. Jay's speech is in No. 81, II, folio 193. Committee Book No. 190 notes: "letter 29 May Secy forn. Affairs and communications made by him this day. To sit on thursday next. The communications. Comeee of the Whole. Report Aug, 23,"]
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